White feminism

I'm actually rly proud of the way I tried to discuss privilege with a white feminist just now (even though she's still sort of a shithead and doesn't get it), so I'll just post the entire convo.

This all started when she posted that rly stupid Jezebel article about the Korean beauty pageant contestants' alleged plastic surgery.  I responded in a (pretty polite) comment that said smth about sexism and post-colonialism idk, and she was v offended, so I took it to messenger to avoid a public scene

Btw I bolded the best parts imo.  I mean everything abt this is wrong and some things that I didn't even notice right away are really indicative of how much racism is normalized, but the bolded parts may make you laugh

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  11:43am
  

  Ashley Song
  

  
  

  Thought it'd be best not to spam your post w contentless comments because I don't like it when people do that

  I didn't accuse you of criticizing individuals, just like I didn't accuse you of being a white man. Sorry if it came off like that, really

  It's just what's happening right now in the internet

  Jezebel, Reddit, etc

  They're taking really ill-formed generalizations and using them to characterize entire swaths of people, and in the process criticizing these individual women who've had work done

  Ya know?
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  11:44am
  

  Caitlin Silber
  

  
  

  yeah haha and yeah I get what youre saying

  i know Im a little extra sensitive cause I keep hitting this "but youre white" road block
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  11:45am
  

  Ashley Song
  

  
  

  Also your boyfriend really pissed me off lol

  I'm sure you love him
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  11:45am
  

  Caitlin Silber
  

  
  

  haha yeah why?
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  11:45am
  

  Ashley Song
  

  
  

  For reasons I outlined in the comment
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  11:45am
  

  Caitlin Silber
  

  
  

  oh ok gotcha
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  11:45am
  

  Ashley Song
  

  
  

  I'm sure it's frustrating to be a white person interested in social justice and have people check your privilege all the time, but it's really necessary

  I'm sure sometimes people do it wrongfully

  But really, there are some things that some people are not qualified to have an opinion on

  I don't have an opinion on controversial trans issues, because I'm not trans

  and I'm not qualified

  It really doesn't matter how much trans or queer theory I've read (and that's a lot), because it doesn't affect me at all
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  11:55am
  

  Caitlin Silber
  

  
  

  mm I feel like it does matter if you want to better the situation.

  Idk, i clearly feel differently than a lot of people I guess. been feeling very much like I dont belong in any of these conversations, but nothings going to change if i stifle my passion because people say I don't belong.
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  11:59am
  

  Ashley Song
  

  
  

  I appreciate that, but you also need to recognize that there is a serious history of WoC feminists being silenced, shamed, and ousted

  Look, I'm not calling you an oppressor

  but can you see the parallels between what you are saying and what men say during discussions of feminism?
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  12:00pm
  

  Caitlin Silber
  

  
  

  no I don't

  because I want to be involved, I want to change it, I approach it knowing I don't know every facet
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  12:02pm
  

  Ashley Song
  

  
  

  "It's not inclusive, I don't feel like my voice is being represented": that's is a valid argument when it stands alone, but given the fact that men dominate almost every discussion of anything besides feminism, their opinions really shouldn't be given as much credence as those of women
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  12:03pm
  

  Ashley Song
  

  
  

  Similarly, white women dominate almost all feminist dialogue

  including feminist dialogue about the developing world, WoC, etc

  Or worse, those things aren't discussed at all

  I'm not saying YOU are guilty of this

  just that these are the facts of our community

  and you should be cognizant of them

  Brb, I'm going to lunch w my coworkers

  but feel free to bombard w protests/comments etc if you want to

  ^^^^ not sarcasm
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  12:15pm
  

  Caitlin Silber
  

  
  

  but see, when did I stop being an individual? I AM aware of that. See, this is what I mean, you assumed I didn't know this. I have so far been exploring the reasons behind my own feminism, so of course they are narrow topics. I've been trying to learn about more worldly issues but know I am no where close to fully understanding. I dont understand how I went from being a person in this conversation to one of many white people. I don't even think of myself that way, and I don't think of you as another Asian person, just a human. I don't think your race defines your thoughts, so I don't understand why we stop being individuals with individual opinions even when discussing human rights, especially in such a globalized world.
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  12:15pm
  

  Caitlin Silber
  

  
  

  no worries, I understand
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  12:38pm
  

  Caitlin Silber
  

  
  

  sorry I seem so fired up, its just Ive lost friends cause of my feminism and then when people I respect and really like, like you or other friends I have, tell me I should but out cause I don't know what I'm talking about, it hurts and makes me feel lost because this is my passion in life and something I feel very strongly about, though it is something I have just started learning about over the last year or so. I dont think of skin color, I think of all the women and girls who feel powerless for any variety of reasons in our world and I just feel passionate about fixing it. I know its a luxury to have gone through this much of my life without realizing my skin color, but I really don't understand why its getting pointed out when I'm just learning and trying to bring attention to what I am reading. I'm not dominating anything, nor am I trying to, so I don't understand why its being interpreted that way.
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  1:28pm
  

  Ashley Song
  

  
  

  Caitlin, I know you're not personally the fount of all racism

  and nobody is trying to make you a scapegoat

  (also I like you too haha)

  It's just that these are things we need to keep in the back of our minds when we discuss

  And I don't know if you're going to agree with this or not, but in my opinion, it's okay for oppressed people to be "hurtful" to people that belong to traditionally empowered groups

  Like women saying "Kill all men"

  Trans people calling cis people "cis scum"

  Because when they do that, the worst it's going to do is hurt a few feelings

  but it creates dialogue about why more attention is given to people whose feelings are hurt by being called "cis scum" than to the 46% of trans people who attempt suicide

  And actually, first off, I should have said it's good that you acknowledge your privilege like that

  However, it's naive to think that, even amongst feminists or people who are "aware", it's possible to dialogue without acknowledging skin color or ethnicity or economic standing or sexuality etc etc

  and it's actually counterproductive to dismiss those characteristics when discussing anything related to sj (or anything, really) because they are important, they drive our society, they drive our interactions, regardless of whether or not we are racists or sexists etc

  My reaction to what you posted had less to do with what you were saying than the article itself, which is hugely problematic and a great example of where white feminists go wrong

  Or even just Western feminism in general
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  1:43pm
  

  Ashley Song
  

  
  

  Also, going back to what I was saying, I'm always going to give more credence to the opinion of the person more directly affected by whatever oppression is being discussed - I will believe a woman's word over a man's when it comes to sexism, a trans person's over a cis person's when it comes to cissexism, a neurodivergent person's over a neurotypical person's when it comes to ableism. I'll always prefer that articles about a South Korean issue be written about an Asian, at least. etc
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  1:44pm
  

  Ashley Song
  

  
  

  Sometimes, your (general your, not you your) opinions just don't matter (as much as other people's)

  Like I don't give a poop what a white dude from New York has to say about abortion clinics in rural majority-black Arkansas

  Idk

  This is all part of checking privilege. I've never intentionally oppressed a trans person, but when I'm talking about trans issues, I'll approach them as part of the cis majority and take responsibility for my privilege

  Like we need to go further than just acknowledging our privileges, we need to actively combat them
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  2:08pm
  

  Caitlin Silber
  

  
  

  mm I see what you're saying, I'm just saying its counterproductive for people to be abrasive to me because I'm white when I'm trying to be involved in a discussion and the process of dismantling privilege too
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  2:14pm
  

  Ashley Song
  

  
  

  I think we should just agree to disagree at this point

  We share a lot of views